There are two kinds of pro-life people. The first kind are actually pro-life and oppose abortion to the extent that they will use any legal method to reduce unwanted pregnancies and not just try to ban abortions. I can respect, if not necessarily fully agree with, this group. They mean well and genuinely care about the end product of the pregnancy. They support food stamps and other forms of public assistance to ensure children are cared for. The idea is that if the mother can be assured she will able to support her child, she will be less likely to abort it even if she was not looking to get pregnant. Not altogether unreasonable.
But then there’s the other kind of pro-”life” person. This group doesn’t really care about abortion at all but only seek to use unwanted pregnancies to punish women for having sex. These people are the sickest of creatures. The first group sees pregnancy as a miracle. The second sees it as retribution for being a whore. The first is motivated by love. The second is motivated by a hatred of women that is difficult to fathom.
The pro-”life” charlatan is like a chameleon in that they hide their real agenda behind an angry defense of “innocent life” while calling pro-choice advocates “murderers” and “baby killers.” I’m going to use a conversation I had with one of these people to show you what to look for and how to get them to admit what they’re really after. I’m not going to redact his name because this was in an open forum and he had no expectations of privacy.
Also, he’s a dick.
The conversation has been edited for length but not content. If you want to read the thread to verify, I have included it here as a Word file. Phony pro-life
The ‘pro-lifer’ conversation about women and sex started with this meme.
Ken Hyde Pro Life, unless the woman was sexually assaulted. The saying, “If you’re old enough to play.. ” comes to mind. As soon as I saw that, I knew exactly what he was really opposed to and it wasn’t abortion – FLS
Andrew Ken, why is there any circumstance in which abortion is acceptable? you said “unless the woman was sexually assaulted,” but why do you oppose it for any other woman? I missed the beginning of the thread so I included this comment from another person because it got the ball rolling – FLS
Ken Hyde Andrew, the only time I support abortion is if a woman is sexually assaulted and as a result becomes pregnant, which was against her will. However, if a woman decides to have consensual sex with a male partner, then its on her to raise that child or give it up for adoption. Like I said before.. the saying, “If you’re old enough to play.. You’re old enough to pay” comes to mind on this topic. Notice that “it’s on her?” No mention of the MAN taking any responsibility – FLS
Justin Rosario What is the difference between a pregnancy from rape as opposed to pregnancy from regular sex as far as the fetus is concerned, Andrew? Is there a quantifiable difference between the two fetuses?
Ken Hyde Andrew, I believe life is at conception. Taking life is wrong. I even find my self having a hard time even supporting an abortion because of my stance on the sexual assault bit.
Tod, with all honesty, no. I’ve only had one sexual partner. ..And that reaffirms my stance on being Pro-Life .. If you can’t keep it in your pants or can’t keep your fucking legs closed, then you better be grown up enough to support a kid ..and if you can’t, then give it up for adoption to a family who can support it. Someone else asked about this and it’s mostly irrelevant other than it denotes a sheltered religious background. Ken later insists that he’s not religious at all but everything he says denotes a moral system informed by religious mores even if he doesn’t actively worship – FLS
Justin Rosario I want to know why Ken is refusing to answer my perfectly reasonable and simple questions. What’s the hold up, Ken?
Justin Rosario Is there a difference between a fetus concieved by rape and one not? Some time had passed and Ken did not want to discuss this. It reveals a fundamental flaw in his reasoning he would rather not examine.
Ken Hyde Justin, I’m sorry, I guess my previous statement addressed to you was not clear enough for your gray matter to fucking process. This is a common conservative tactic: insist that the question was already answered when it has not. Never let this pass. Point out that there previous “answer” was nothing of the sort and stick to the question - FLS
There is no difference in a fetus whether it was conceived by rape or not.. Of course there isn’t. Thinking like that is fucking naive.
My point here, and I’ve made it several times on this thread, is that if you’re old enough to open your legs up or not mature enough to keep it in your fucking pants.. and consensually have intercourse that results in a child, then who are you to renig on that? Because you can’t handle it? Because you’re old enough to go fuck around with someone.. but can’t deal withe after effects? Get fucking real. Notice the anger? No one likes to be called on their bullshit. Especially when they can’t back it up – FLS
Justin Rosario Then why is aborting one a murder and the other not? You have not explained this. You have only explained that you think one woman should be punished and the other should not. Stay on target…stay on target… – Red Leader
Justin Rosario What does that have to do with the fetus?
Ken Hyde Justin, if you read at all what I’ve wrote (even not addressed to you), I’ve answered the questions you’ve asked. So stop with the fucking badgering. I answer everyone who addresses me ..or I try to. There is no need for any sort of badgering ..that I don’t tolerate. - Another common tactic: They’ll complain that you’re being mean and attempt to take the high ground to avoid further interaction. Never let this pass either – FLS
Justin Rosario I’ve read what you’ve written, you have said that a woman that doesn’t keep her legs shut should be pounished and one that is raped shouldn’t. that is an external consideration. Why is one murder and the other not is the fetuses are not different ?
Justin Rosario The point is he is using an external value judgment and i would like to know what he is basing it on. In response to another person complaining that I’m “badgering him.” Can you guess whether the person was a liberal or a conservative? I’ll bet you can! – FLS
Ken Hyde Tod, I agree. I’m glad he lays his views out.
..Wait, that being said, Justin, instead of badgering someone who has laid out his views.. what are yours? This is where he tries to make it about my views so he can stop discussing his. It doesn’t work – FLS
Justin Rosario My view is irrelevant. I would still like to know what you are basing your moral judgment on.
Ken Hyde So your views are irrelevant, but you’d just rather sit there and badger me? Gotcha. I’ll remember that for the future as I have not had much of a pleasure talking on here with you since when you joined, I left for work out of state.. So it’s good to know and it reaffirms my view on the left. “My view is irrelevent.. But I really care how you came about your views, morals, etc..”
Ken Hyde I’ve stated my stance on both abortion and the death penalty. If you can’t comprehend my view, that is your problem. I do not expect you to agree it.. but I would hope that as a blog writer you would at least comprehend it. He’s pro-death penalty. Are you surprised? – FLS
..Perhaps though, you’re waiting for Barack Obama to start up a reading comprehension program that you can sign up for free while the rest pay for it. Not sure. Oh noes! The mandatory “I hate Obama!” statement – FLS
None the less, I’ve expressed, fully and concisely, my stance on these two issues..
Justin Rosario I understand your view perfectly: women that have sex should be punished with pregnancy. I want to know why.
Justin Rosario You don’t care about my views unless they match yours. You demand I adhere to yours. Therefor, I don’t think I am being unreasonable in asking that you clarify yours. This is the crux of the debate. The right demands that we obey their will and claim persecution when we tell them to keep their religion to themselves – FLS
Ken Hyde Justin, because they choose to be an adult and make a baby. If you can’t handle having a baby, no matter what the reason is, then perhaps that woman should keep her fucking legs closed. Is that not fucking clear enough to you? Again, the woman is at fault. Now that we’ve established that he thinks pregnancy is a punishment, it’s time to move on to the second part of exposing his real agenda – FLS
Justin Rosario Then you support full sexual education and access to contraceptives to avoid unwanted pregnancies? People who are really against abortion support any means to make them unnecessary. People like Ken want unwanted pregnancies.
Justin Rosario After all, that would reduce the need for abortions.
Ken Hyde Justin, at what level? In the home? In the school?
Justin Rosario In the school, of course. Too many parents are too uncomfortable or lack the knowledge to teach proper sex ed at home.
Justin Rosario School is meant to prepare students for the real world. Sex ed is no different than home ec.
Ken Hyde Access to contraceptives.. for free? No. Everywhere? No. Of course not – FLS
Why? Abstinence. You don’t NEED to have sex. Mind over matter. — Furthermore, parents should do a better job of parenting. There have always been wonderful resources for parents, even decades ago.. called the library.. and now we have the internet. He’s pro-abstinence. Again, are you surprised? – FLS
School is to learn an education, not to learn how to keep your pants on. If your parents can’t teach you to keep your clothes on until your a responsible adult, then perhaps they shouldn’t of had you in the first place. Vicious circle, eh? :) Haha! Because it’s funny to burden teens with responsibilities they can’t handle! Who cares if the baby suffers? Haha! – Told you he was a dick – FLS
Justin Rosario Absitenance only training does not work. This has been proven. Ten agers will have sex regardless. If the goal is to reduce or eliminate abortions then sex ed and contraceptive availibility is just another tool to do so. Why would you oppose such a thing?
Ken Hyde I never said once that I oppose sex. I said, I believe in abstinence. I do believe in contraceptives.. just not in schools. It’s not the place. Doctor offices have been able to provide them since their existence. If he actually believed in them he wouldn’t oppose them being free with insurance – FLS
Justin Rosario So you support sex ed in schools?
Justin Rosario I notice you are not answering my qquestion about sex ed in school. We’ve already established that abstinance only training does not work and parents are too unreliable for this kind of thing. He avoided me for a bit. Apparently I was getting on his nerves. I have that effect on people – FLS
Justin Rosario But I beleive Ken Hyde thinks a fertilized egg is a person? So why is teaching kids not to get pregnant when having sex a bad idea?
Ken Hyde I told you.. I do not believe school is the place for sexual education and that I believe parents have had.. and have always had plenty of resources to educate their children on the subject.. their just too lazy or scared to do so. Again, read what I write man.. I’m really tired of repeating myself. Another conservative tactic: keep repeating the same talking points even after their flaws are pointed out – FLS
Justin Rosario I did read it and why is it wrong to teach in schools if that is a proven method or reducing abortions? I thought you wanted less abortions. That’s still true is it not? This is the critical question phony pro-”lifers” will avoid like the plague if possible. There is no logical answer – FLS
Justin Rosario Relying on parents leads to increased unwanted pregnancies and if the goal is to reduce abortions then it needs to be taught despite them. You have not told me why this is a bad idea.
Ken Hyde I had sex ed where I went to school.. and so did the entire class I graduated with.. and there were probably 25-30 pregnant teenagers in my graduation class.. there have always been pregnant teenagers in school. So, obviously, it hasn’t worked in the past. Possible but unlikely. If the town was small enough for everyone to known everyone else’s business the graduating class would be small enough that 25-30 teenagers would be an astonishing departure from national norms. 39 per 1000 girls in 2009 which is close to the low of 1976 – FLStatistics
Justin Rosario But it’s still lower than a school that teaches abstinance only. Every scrap of data supports this. Why are you opposed to lessening abortions through sex ed?
Ken Hyde Justin, and there is plenty of so called “data” that supports abstinence..
“Two years after completing the program, a survey showed that the abstinence training was effective in getting 67% of the kids to delay having sex. That’s compared to 48% of students in another group who only received basic health information.” Conservatives LOVE this article. If I had a nickel for every time someone whipped it out I’d be Mitt Romney. But with a personality, morals and a soul – FLS
Tit for tat. You say “Tomato” I say “Tomatoe” ..
Justin Rosario Yes, I am aware of this. It only delays them having sex for a several months. It does not stop them if you had bothered to read it. I like that article too. Why? Because I read it and they NEVER do. He never brings it up again. Ha. Ha. Ha. – FLS
Justin Rosario This does not stop them from having oral sex and ananl sex with its tramission of STDs, however. You kneww that, right? Probably not and he would consider it a just punishment anyway – FLS
Justin Rosario Sex ed would reduce this problem as well.
Ken Hyde Justin, okay.. one last time. I think schools are institutions designed for academics… not to talk about sexual education. Sex ed is simply the delivery of information. You don’t see conservatives complaining about Home Economics the same way – FLS
Justin Rosario Why not?
Justin Rosario Yopu already admitted parents fail in this regard. The goal is less abortions. Schools have been proven to do this job adequately. Why are you opposed to less abortions?
Ken Hyde I just fucking said why not. Jesus fucking Christ. MaybeBarack Obama should put together a free reading comprehension class. He’s so clever, he used the same lame insult twice – FLS
Justin Rosario Then you are promoting an increase in abortions. Why is that Ken?
Justin Rosario You’ve already admitted that parents suck as sex ed. That leads to more abortions.
Justin Rosario You DO want less abortions don’t you?
Ken Hyde How am I promoting that? I’m promoting parents to teach their children something for once. And how is he doing that? I should have asked him if he supports free sex ed classes for adults. I think his head might have exploded – FLS
Justin Rosario ”their just too lazy or scared to do so.” You have admitted this. You know that they won;t or can’t. Therefor, you insisting that they be the sole source of sex ed knowing that they won;t means you are promoting more abortions.
Justin Rosario Shouldn’t you want abortions reduced by any means necessary?
Ken Hyde In the past they have been too lazy or scared to do so. And I’ve said several times that that should do it. They NEED to do it. It’s their responsibility. Not the schools. I send my children to school to be academically educated. I’m not sure what you send your children to school for.
Justin Rosario But he’s already unequivocably said that parents fail in this regard. Should teen sex be punished with preganacy because the parents failed when the school can adeqwuately do the job?
Ken Hyde Schools can’t adequately do the job. And again, they shouldn’t have that for their job.
Justin Rosario But we’ve already determined they do a better job than parents. Why would you oppose this is you know for a fact that it leads to less abortions?
Justin Rosario Why should teens be punished for having sex because their parents didn’t prepare them for whatever reason? This is the most important question. These degenerates believe children should be punished for having sex. Getting them to admit this is the climax (so to speak) – FLS
Ken Hyde Justin, it’s been fun to debate you tonight, but, it’s my bed time. Twelve hour day tomorrow with an hour drive each way. Translation – I don’t want to talk about this anymore – FLS
Justin Rosario Should teens be punished for having sex, yes or no?
Ken Hyde Should teens be punished for engaging in sexual activity from their parents? Yes. It’s not socially acceptable, in my eyes for a CHILD to be having sex. A parent who knows of their child having sex and condones it should hang themselves. BINGO!
Justin Rosario And there you have it! Shane, Tod, you may both kiss my ass. This is what i was driving at and both of you are too stupid to follow it. For Ken, abortion isn’t about “innocent life” it’s about punishing women who have sex. Look carefully at his answers. He is not interested AT ALL in decreasing abortions. He is interested in making sure women that “fucking spread their legs” suffer for doing so. Shane and Tod are two libertarian/conservatives that have an intense dislike for me after I’ve repeatedly battered their illusions of libertarian superiority. So much so that they kept leaping to defend Ken from my “badgering” despite not agreeing with him at all. It was more important to stand against me than to call Ken on his disgusting views.
So this is how you corner a phony pro-lifer and get them to admit that their real problem is actually teen sex or women being able to have sex without consequence. It takes persistence and patience but it’s worth it to bring it light. For the last 50 years, ever since the Griswold v Connecticut decision gave us the right to purchase contraceptives (yes, it was illegal before that), the right has fumed at the idea of women having control over when they get pregnant. Roe v Wade made it worse but the problem was the same. Conservatives despise the freedom women have over their bodies and their lives. Now that the history is passing the social conservative movement by, they’ve become increasingly desperate and increasingly bold. More anti-abortion laws have been passed in the last two years than in all the decades before it. The right has dropped the pretense that they care about children and have begun to openly attacked birth control, just like liberals have been saying they would for decades. Look for these hateful pigs, make sure others see them for what they really are and have fun doing it! It’s a win-win!